Winter Is Coming

And I feel like I should start planning another ‘Huntress Love’ event soon, though this time for either the last week of November or the first week of December to give my Huntress Bros enough time to prepare. Also it’s around that time that the Huntress first debuted as Helena Wayne.

Last year we did I ♥ Huntress which was basically us fans celebrating all that we personally love about the character, either Wayne or Bertinelli, or both in some of our cases.

Because DC Comics has such a shitty track record with the Huntress going as far back as Helena Bertinelli’s debut in 1989, and they’re still shitty towards the Huntress (even as Helena Wayne) in the year 2014 (the most recent rage-inducing fuck-up being their constant teasing of her potential fridging in World’s End), I’m thinking for this year, we Huntress fans should get together and devote an entire week to:

Seven Reasons Why DC Comics SHOULD LOVE The Huntress More!

I know I got plenty of ideas for that one. And of course, it’s not just us Wayne fans who should have all the fun. Bertinelli fans are invited as well as always.

Do note, however, that racism and misogyny are most definitely NOT welcome in this event. The whole point of these events is to celebrate what we LOVE about the characters, not what we hate about one version or  the other. Just thought I’d make that clear.

Huntress bros, helenawayne, helenabertinellihuntress, what say you? 

Seven Reasons DC Comics should love the Huntress more for late November/early December. Yay or nay?

dcwomenofcolor:

From preboot to reboot:

Etta Candy
Kendra Saunders
Alanna Strange
Helena Bertinelli

helenabertinellihuntress:

Helena teaches us how to properly swear in Italian. Paul Levitz, Ivory Madison and Devin Grayson, take note.

At first glance I thought that said ‘porca troia’ and almost commented with ‘I’m surprised DC Comics allowed that to see print,’ only to realise—at closer look—that it said ‘porca vacca,’ lol. Whoops! XD
(To be fair to myself, I was looking at this on my mobile). 

helenabertinellihuntress:

Helena teaches us how to properly swear in Italian. Paul Levitz, Ivory Madison and Devin Grayson, take note.

At first glance I thought that said ‘porca troia’ and almost commented with ‘I’m surprised DC Comics allowed that to see print,’ only to realise—at closer look—that it said ‘porca vacca,’ lol. Whoops! XD

(To be fair to myself, I was looking at this on my mobile). 

beachgnome:

helenawaynehuntress:

beachgnome:

ITS FINE TO ENJOY DINAH DRAKE AND HELENA WAYNE

IT IS, HOWEVER, NOT OKAY TO SUPPORT THE IDEA THAT YOU CAN JUST SWAP WOMEN AROUND LIKE THAT

Sure they would have been interesting as friends to Barbara but it is MORALLY WRONG for DC to have done what they did. That fact needs to be acknowledged.

I have to ask, did you similarly think it was ‘morally wrong’ for DC to:

  1. Erase Helena Wayne as the Huntress for two decades and REBOOT her as another woman—in this case, Helena Bertinelli—while Batman’s sons get the privilege of keeping their origins intact?

  2. To EXPROPRIATE Helena Wayne’s name, origin, physical appearance, modus operandi, and identity as a superhero and as a woman onto an essentially different woman without ever acknowledging Wayne as the original Huntress?

  3. To give Helena Bertinelli MEMBERSHIP into the Bat Family, a family that is more rightfully Wayne’s?

  4. To pair off Helena Bertinelli with Dick Grayson romantically, even though Dick Grayson was an important person in Helena Wayne’s life, was her family, and even teased as a potential love interest for her?

  5. To pair off Helena Bertinelli with Catman in a way that heavily alluded to Batman and Catwoman’s relationship, even though Batman and Catwoman are Helena Wayne’s parents, and would therefore be the more appropriate Huntress to explore this idea with?

  6. For Helena Bertinelli to be written as wanting Batman’s approval despite not really having any real reason for it beyond her former life as Helena Wayne?

  7. For Helena Bertinelli go be given membership into the Justice League and work with other superheroes Helena Wayne teamed up with regularly in the pre-Crisis days?

More importantly, did you support any or all of those ideas and developments with your money at any time within the last two decades? Because, if so, you immediately invalidate any point you are trying to make here.

No one here is denying that DC Comics has a serious problem with women. But if you are going to have a legitimate discussion about DC treating their women as interchangeable, you yourself need to acknowledge that the problem with the Huntress started with Helena Bertinelli post-Crisis, not with Helena Wayne in the New 52.

I’ve said it before, I will say it again: the idea that Helena Bertinelli existed as a rebooted Helena Wayne in the post-Crisis continuity is a well documented FACT that’s been acknowledged in two legitimate DC Comics sources: the introductions to Huntress: Year One and Huntress: Darknight Daughter trade paperbacks.

Given that reality, it was neither a coincidence nor an accident that the post-Crisis Helena Bertinelli was developed in ways that either alluded to or were more more appropriate for Helena Wayne. As such, the post-Crisis Helena Bertinelli embodied all of the problems you and many others are complaining about here.

The fact that she was created as an Italian-American woman who is Catholic, connected to the mafia, and often times depicted as an ultra-violent heroine who was deliberately made to look worse than other antiheroes does not change any of that. If you so much as rationalise how unique Helena Bertinelli was while looking the other way at all the different ways her development borrowed heavily from Helena Wayne’s Huntress, you compromise your position in this argument.

Helena Wayne is the original character who originated and defined the Huntress as we know her. Much of what we like about the Huntress did NOT originate with Helena Bertinelli in any way, including:

  1. The idea of the Huntress as a female Batman. More specifically, becoming the Huntress in response to losing family to criminals, especially one who functioned as a criminal. That was Helena Wayne’s origin.

  2. The idea of the Huntress not dealing with sexism or misogyny, and beating unconscious any criminal who insults her on the basis of her gender. Helena Wayne did that first.

  3. The idea of the Huntress as a woman with psychological issues that in part influence why she does what she does. Again Helena Wayne got there first. There was even a whole story arc devoted to that in Wonder Woman.

  4. The idea of the Huntress as an aggressive fighter and being willing to use excessive force as a way of getting criminals to talk. Again, Helena Wayne got there first, particularly in the mid-1980s.

  5. The Huntress being willing to kill under extreme circumstances and not always feeling bad for any criminals who die during their encounters with her. Again Helena Wayne got there first, even during Paul Levitz’ original run of her. The main difference with this one here is that the Comics Code of Authority (which was still in place during Helena Wayne’s original publication) prevented writers from depicting heroes actively killing anyone, and writers often had to ‘find ways around that,’ which they did with Helena Wayne.

That being said, people are entitled to like what they like, yourself included. People are also allowed to like things that are problematic as long as they don’t ignore the problems. 

You are absolutely NO ONE to say to anyone how they should spend their own money or support the characters they want to support. Many of the problems that exist with DC Comics are beyond the reach of most fans and even creators alike.

Even if we don’t actively support the changes they are imposing, that doesn’t mean (let alone guarantee) that DC Comics will bend back on their decisions and actually give fans what they want. If that had always been the case, Helena Wayne fans would’ve gotten Helena Wayne back A LOT sooner than we actually did because Helena Bertinelli was not initially successful with fans earlier on in her publication.

All of the problems that exist with DC Comics is up to executives to fix. It is up to them to LISTEN to their customers and make appropriate changes that will improve the quality and reception of their product.  

As for fans, we will buy anything that features our favourite characters and creative teams. That is how we roll. We may not support every decision that gets made with our favourite characters by the publisher (I sure as hell don’t), but we will nonetheless buy anything that features those characters we like in hopes of getting more of those characters.

And you know what? We are entitled to do that.

You’re all throwing up valid points. Though I am going to say that Catman argument is a bit of a stretch. Also, at her best written, Helena B could give less than two shits about Batman’s approval. It’s one of her selling points.

My main points in regards to these characters is this:

  • I am so sick of everything revolving around Batman
  • We have Earth 2 again so why couldn’t we have BOTH of these ladies? Really DC? I would have loved that shit.

I would be PUMPED about Helena Wayne if she was running around doing Helena Wayne things on Earth 2 but she’s specifically doing Helena B. things on Earth 1 and it freaks me out.

Having been lied to about which Helena I was reading for her series really drove me past the rage point in regards to the Huntress title. Heck, I used to think Helena Wayne was neat, some of the first comics I ever bought had stories of hers at the back. 

I just want her far away from the Birds of Prey because that belongs to everyone’s favourite Mafia bashing catholic vigilante schoolteacher.

Though I am going to say that Catman argument is a bit of a stretch.

It isn’t a ‘bit of a stretch’ when the character in question was created as a male version of Catwoman in the 1960s, and whose modus operandi for most of his publication history was—excuse the pun—a direct copy cat of Catwoman’s. Prior to Gail Simone’s reinterpretation of his character, he literally didn’t have much going for him in terms of originality.

Additionally, Huntress and Catman explored many of the same tropes that you often see with Batman and Catwoman, including:

  1. The iconic dancing while flirting scene.
  2. Flirting while fighting.
  3. Huntress feeling conflicted about pursuing a relationship with a criminal despite being very attracted to him.
  4. Catman wanting something more with the Huntress but knowing it’ll never happen.

For a bonus, even Deadshot was often written pointing out the obvious attraction between the two, even commented to Catman in Secret Six #1 that the Huntress was ‘the closest thing [he had] to doing with it with Batman.’

So no. It’s not ‘a bit of a stretch’ at all. It very much does play into the idea of a reverse-gendered Batman and Catwoman relationship. That is still Helena Wayne’s territory. 

Also, at her best written, Helena B could give less than two shits about Batman’s approval. It’s one of her selling points.

This completely misses the point of the issue I was addressing. She still appeared in Batman narratives for most of her publication history. She was still more closely associated with the Bat family than any other superhero family in the DC Universe. Most of her friends and relationships she acquired (or even wanted to acquire) from this family were Helena Wayne’s.

Even with the times that she was written as ‘not giving two shits about Batman’s approval,’ that doesn’t erase the fact that it still happened in other narratives. It also still doesn’t erase any of the other problems that came with her character that very much called for the systematic erasure of one woman while simultaneously using those same developments to service another.

I would be PUMPED about Helena Wayne if she was running around doing Helena Wayne things on Earth 2 

Now you’re backpedalling because this wasn’t in your original discussion at all. 

but she’s specifically doing Helena B. things on Earth 1 and it freaks me out.

You do realise you are talking about a character who post-Crisis was created as a rebooted version of Helena Wayne, right? You also realise that Helena Bertinelli’s modus operandi post-Crisis WAS Helena Wayne’s pre-Crisis, yes?

Again, Helena Wayne is doing what she’s always been doing since her very inception. I admit that the story in the Huntress miniseries was a more appropriate narrative for Helena Bertinelli given her Italian and mafia roots, and it is, in fact, very problematic how Helena Wayne was reintroduced in the New 52. I’m not going to argue against that. But beyond that? Helena Wayne isn’t ripping off of Helena Bertinelli at all. Helena Wayne is doing in the New 52 what she has always done as the Huntress pre-Crisis. The Huntress identity and subsequent mode of operation has always belonged to her.

I just want her far away from the Birds of Prey because that belongs to everyone’s favourite Mafia bashing catholic vigilante schoolteacher.

While I am not going to argue against your feelings on this matter (which are legitimate), it is worth nothing that if you are seriously going to argue that Helena Wayne should stay away from everything you identify with Helena Bertinelli, then you just placed yourself in another sticky spot in this discussion. Because by that same logic, you shouldn’t even be fan of the post-Crisis Helena Bertinelli either given how much of her own development heavily hinged on the pre-Crisis Helena Wayne’s. Outside of the few things that were truly unique to her character, she very much had Helena Wayne’s life and place in the post-Crisis DC Universe. 

This actually brings me back to my original point: your position in this discussion is not as sincere as you’re trying to make it look. If you want to have a legitimate discussion about DC Comics’ problem with women, you literally cannot look the other way at a problem that very much applies to the character you like. Once you do that, you immediately invalidate any point you are trying to make. On that same note, you also don’t get to tell other people how they should support their favourite characters, and even less so if you yourself supported characters you liked, problematic developments and all. 

As I said in my original response to this post, you are entitled to like the things that you like, even if they are problematic. What is NOT okay is for you to ignore the problems that do exist with the things that you like because you happen to like them. Even less so if you are attempting to address a very legitimate problem with the way DC Comics treats and repurposes their women, and more specifically, how they tend to throw out certain women like yesterday’s trash sometimes in favour of other women. This isn’t a problem that started with the New 52. It’s been a problem throughout DC’s publishing history that intensified especially after the Crisis reboot.

beachgnome:

ITS FINE TO ENJOY DINAH DRAKE AND HELENA WAYNE

IT IS, HOWEVER, NOT OKAY TO SUPPORT THE IDEA THAT YOU CAN JUST SWAP WOMEN AROUND LIKE THAT

Sure they would have been interesting as friends to Barbara but it is MORALLY WRONG for DC to have done what they did. That fact needs to be acknowledged.

I have to ask, did you similarly think it was ‘morally wrong’ for DC to:

  1. Erase Helena Wayne as the Huntress for two decades and REBOOT her as another woman—in this case, Helena Bertinelli—while Batman’s sons get the privilege of keeping their origins intact?

  2. To EXPROPRIATE Helena Wayne’s name, origin, physical appearance, modus operandi, and identity as a superhero and as a woman onto an essentially different woman without ever acknowledging Wayne as the original Huntress?

  3. To give Helena Bertinelli MEMBERSHIP into the Bat Family, a family that is more rightfully Wayne’s?

  4. To pair off Helena Bertinelli with Dick Grayson romantically, even though Dick Grayson was an important person in Helena Wayne’s life, was her family, and even teased as a potential love interest for her?

  5. To pair off Helena Bertinelli with Catman in a way that heavily alluded to Batman and Catwoman’s relationship, even though Batman and Catwoman are Helena Wayne’s parents, and would therefore be the more appropriate Huntress to explore this idea with?

  6. For Helena Bertinelli to be written as wanting Batman’s approval despite not really having any real reason for it beyond her former life as Helena Wayne?

  7. For Helena Bertinelli go be given membership into the Justice League and work with other superheroes Helena Wayne teamed up with regularly in the pre-Crisis days?

More importantly, did you support any or all of those ideas and developments with your money at any time within the last two decades? Because, if so, you immediately invalidate any point you are trying to make here.

No one here is denying that DC Comics has a serious problem with women. But if you are going to have a legitimate discussion about DC treating their women as interchangeable, you yourself need to acknowledge that the problem with the Huntress started with Helena Bertinelli post-Crisis, not with Helena Wayne in the New 52.

I’ve said it before, I will say it again: the idea that Helena Bertinelli existed as a rebooted Helena Wayne in the post-Crisis continuity is a well documented FACT that’s been acknowledged in two legitimate DC Comics sources: the introductions to Huntress: Year One and Huntress: Darknight Daughter trade paperbacks.

Given that reality, it was neither a coincidence nor an accident that the post-Crisis Helena Bertinelli was developed in ways that either alluded to or were more more appropriate for Helena Wayne. As such, the post-Crisis Helena Bertinelli embodied all of the problems you and many others are complaining about here.

The fact that she was created as an Italian-American woman who is Catholic, connected to the mafia, and often times depicted as an ultra-violent heroine who was deliberately made to look worse than other antiheroes does not change any of that. If you so much as rationalise how unique Helena Bertinelli was while looking the other way at all the different ways her development borrowed heavily from Helena Wayne’s Huntress, you compromise your position in this argument.

Helena Wayne is the original character who originated and defined the Huntress as we know her. Much of what we like about the Huntress did NOT originate with Helena Bertinelli in any way, including:

  1. The idea of the Huntress as a female Batman. More specifically, becoming the Huntress in response to losing family to criminals, especially one who functioned as a criminal. That was Helena Wayne’s origin.

  2. The idea of the Huntress not dealing with sexism or misogyny, and beating unconscious any criminal who insults her on the basis of her gender. Helena Wayne did that first.

  3. The idea of the Huntress as a woman with psychological issues that in part influence why she does what she does. Again Helena Wayne got there first. There was even a whole story arc devoted to that in Wonder Woman.

  4. The idea of the Huntress as an aggressive fighter and being willing to use excessive force as a way of getting criminals to talk. Again, Helena Wayne got there first, particularly in the mid-1980s.

  5. The Huntress being willing to kill under extreme circumstances and not always feeling bad for any criminals who die during their encounters with her. Again Helena Wayne got there first, even during Paul Levitz’ original run of her. The main difference with this one here is that the Comics Code of Authority (which was still in place during Helena Wayne’s original publication) prevented writers from depicting heroes actively killing anyone, and writers often had to ‘find ways around that,’ which they did with Helena Wayne.

That being said, people are entitled to like what they like, yourself included. People are also allowed to like things that are problematic as long as they don’t ignore the problems. 

You are absolutely NO ONE to say to anyone how they should spend their own money or support the characters they want to support. Many of the problems that exist with DC Comics are beyond the reach of most fans and even creators alike.

Even if we don’t actively support the changes they are imposing, that doesn’t mean (let alone guarantee) that DC Comics will bend back on their decisions and actually give fans what they want. If that had always been the case, Helena Wayne fans would’ve gotten Helena Wayne back A LOT sooner than we actually did because Helena Bertinelli was not initially successful with fans earlier on in her publication.

All of the problems that exist with DC Comics is up to executives to fix. It is up to them to LISTEN to their customers and make appropriate changes that will improve the quality and reception of their product.  

As for fans, we will buy anything that features our favourite characters and creative teams. That is how we roll. We may not support every decision that gets made with our favourite characters by the publisher (I sure as hell don’t), but we will nonetheless buy anything that features those characters we like in hopes of getting more of those characters.

And you know what? We are entitled to do that.

helenabertinellihuntress:

espressonist:

abbyromana:

Reading lately about Grayson, I guess there’s a bit of an up roar about the skin color of Helena Bertinelli. I guess that shouldn’t be surprising, sadly. :/

But is it weird that when I read the last issue of Nightwing, I really didn’t notice. Like it just felt natural for her…

I’m curious though. Didn’t we see Bertinellis picture on her passport as Helena W was burning it?


And if Helena Wayne was posing as her, wouldn’t they look alike?

I don’t really take issue with the skin color. I just hope the character is recognizable personality wise. Because, if they literally change everything about an established character, why not just make a new one?

No judgements here until I read the book.:-)

We did see it.

However, I suspect Wayne was either using a picture of herself or someone else for the passport photo.

Just some speculation.

I’m pretty sure Helena Wayne was using her own picture when she created her Helena Bertinelli passport.

It’s worth remembering that Helena Wayne is the daughter of Batman and Catwoman, two people who are skilled at falsifying documentation. There is no reason why Helena Wayne wouldn’t have those same skills and has consistently demonstrated in Worlds’ Finest that she can hack into very secure computer systems and exploit those systems for her own use.

There is no reason why she wouldn’t be able to create a fake ID using her own picture and false information. Simply stealing a ‘dead person’s’ passport without doing any alterations to it doesn’t sound like something she would do.

Just my two cents.

narayu-crea:

Helena Bertinelli and Helena Wayne :Two Huntresses ! during the convention I met another Huntress cosplayer (it was her first costume !)Huntress : costume worn and made by me (at left)Huntress : (at right) : ?Geekopolis 2014, Parisphoto taken by Shashin Kaihimore here : https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.774416752589546.1073741835.227254813972412&type=3The Huntress (C) DC Comics/ Batman/ Birds of Prey

narayu-crea:

Helena Bertinelli and Helena Wayne :
Two Huntresses ! 

during the convention I met another Huntress cosplayer (it was her first costume !)

Huntress : costume worn and made by me (at left)
Huntress : (at right) : ?

Geekopolis 2014, Paris
photo taken by Shashin Kaihi
more here : https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.774416752589546.1073741835.227254813972412&type=3

The Huntress (C) DC Comics/ Batman/ Birds of Prey

lyrafay:

This is a great well thought article about Helena Bertinelli! 

Reblogging myself. :)

An excellent article written by my mate, comiccombatant.

Please check it out!

Earlier this month, creators Tim Seeley and Tom King announced that a New 52 version of Helena Bertinelli would be debuting in the new series, Grayson, which would see Dick Grayson rebuilding his life as a spy after the events of Forever Evil outed him as Nightwing.This week saw the official first appearance of Helena Bertinelli as both an agent of Spyral and as woman of colour in the final pages of Nightwing #30.

As was to be expected in this situation, the change to Helena Bertinelli’s appearance in the New 52 didn’t go unnoticed. Many people supported the change and there were just as many who didn’t. Those who supported the change saw this as a positive development for the character, and those who didn’t complained about the change for all of the wrong reasons. Unsurprisingly, most of the complaints were, at best, deeply rooted in ignorance over the diversity of people that exist in Italy, and, at worst, rife with racist rhetoric.

Given the mixed bag of reactions the new Helena Bertinelli got, I decided to compile my own list of reasons for why this change actually works in her favour. Not just to enlighten the unenlightened, but also to express my own excitement for this development as well as address any concerns about where this could go given DC’s awful track record with women in the New 52. But first, the positives!

Read more.

So. I had stuff to say. Namely in favour of rebooting Helena Bertinelli as a woman of colour, which I think is a good idea. I also address concerns that could potentially come from this, namely in terms of character development since DC’s track record with women in the New 52 is horrendous. Their track record with women of colour in particular isn’t any better.

Before any of you click this link or even reblog this, let me be absolutely clear about something: This is a post that discusses FIVE reasons why Helena Bertinelli as a woman of colour is a positive development for her, and what it means for the representation of Italians of colour. YES, contrary to popular fan opinion, Italians of colour DO exist in Italy!

I completely understand if you’re concerned about how the character will be developed within the context of the New 52. That is a legitimate concern taking into account just how many women have been rewritten and completely repurposed so that their personalities and narratives are BARELY recognisable for the people we like them for.

But if you’re in that corner of fandom that thinks Helena Bertinelli can’t still be the character you know and love because she has darker skin now, or if you’re of the position that ‘Italians are white not black,’ GET THE FUCK OUT. Don’t even bother reblogging this post just to counter-argue that because it’s not an argument you are going to win with me—I’ll tell you that now. Don’t even bother hitting my inbox either, because I’m not going to have this conversation with you either. I will instead link to this video to shut you up. I hope your Italian is good cause you’re going to need it to comprehend the discussion that is being had in this video, including about inclusivity and racism in Italy!

That being said, happy reading. therearecertainshadesoflimelight, I hope you don’t mind that I linked three of your tweets in this post!